Afraid of Stories with Saint

In this episode of Afraid of Nothing, Bob Heske sits down with paranormal investigator, electrical engineer, and storyteller Elizabeth Saint to explore what happens when science and intuition collide. From growing up with unexplained experiences to building a career grounded in logic and systems, Elizabeth shares how she learned to navigate both worlds—and why she no longer sees them as separate.

The conversation dives into her evolution from on-camera investigator to creator of Stories with Saint, an immersive, audience-driven storytelling platform that blurs the line between reality and narrative. Elizabeth unpacks how technology, perception, and consciousness all play a role in how we experience the unknown—and why traditional methods of “proving” the paranormal may be missing the bigger picture.

At its core, this episode isn’t about ghosts—it’s about interpretation. It challenges listeners to reconsider what they believe, how they process fear, and whether the unexplained is something to avoid… or something trying to reach us.

Watch this episode on YouTube

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Stories with Saint Acting Submissions

ABOUT ELIZABETH SAINT

Elizabeth Saint is a paranormal investigator, electrical engineer, and creative storyteller known for bridging the gap between science and the unexplained. Rising to prominence through television projects like Paranormal Lockdown, Ghosts of Shepherdstown and documentary The House in Between 2, she brings a unique analytical lens to paranormal phenomena, combining technical expertise with intuitive insight. She is also the creator of Stories with Saint, an immersive, audience-driven storytelling platform that blends real-world inspiration with cinematic narrative, inv

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

But you fit into that skin better than I expected. Honestly, you almost had me fall.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

Welcome back, Saint Shadow Society. A story was offered, a path was chosen. What you're about to hear is the result.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Wow, I am here with a blast from the past. Elizabeth Saint, who was actually in season one. Um, her production company distributed was the first to distribute my documentary, Afraid of Nothing. And I am so happy to have her back five, six years later because she is a woman who does everything and has a lot going on. And I'm so happy to call her a friend and to be involved in one of her more recent projects, Stories with Saints, that we'll talk about in a bit. But first, Elizabeth, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here with you again.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Oh, it's awesome. And uh, you know, the world should know who you are. But anyways, just for people who are under a rock, just can you give us a quick overview of uh who you are? And because you've been a you're you are an American producer, actress, kind of a paranormal gadget person, you're an inventor, you do it all. And uh, you know, just add on that a little bit for the audience so they know kind of the special person we're talking to today.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Yeah, absolutely. I think if people know me at all, uh it would be through the TV show I was a part of, Ghosts of Shepherdstown. And um, my background is in electrical engineering, so it's been kind of cool to bring the tech side of me into the paranormal space, and I've been able to do that through uh gadgets I created for Ghosts of Shepherdstown. I've also done that in uh Paranormal Lockdown, and um I've done that for both Steves, Steve Shippy and Steve Gonzalez on their project projects as well.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

Wow. And you uh were a model before, but then some paranormal things led you into this field. You want to can you talk about some of the stuff that kind of you know got your interest in this field and how you went in with both feet?

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Yeah, absolutely. I think that, you know, my my journey to I guess the more public side of the paranormal was rather unexpected, but I I think it was definitely meant to be uh out of college or out of high school, I should say. I I went to college initially for maybe like a month, and then I did get the opportunity to um do some high fashion modeling in New York City for a couple years, so I I did that. I I don't talk about that that part of my life very often, but point being is that I went I went back to school actually and ended up studying electrical engineering, and that's what kind of brought me down to the DC area, which is where I still live, um, because I was working for the Department of Defense for a while. And even though I've had experiences with the paranormal my entire life, I would say since I was about four years old, it was a very private part of my life for a very long time. It wasn't something that I spoke about. I didn't talk about my day-to-day experiences. Um, but when I moved down to DC for my government job, I had moved into this apartment down here in Virginia that I it reached a point where I could not ignore anymore the things that I was experiencing. Um, I had a lot of activity at that location, and it got to a point where I honestly started like searching around. I didn't know anybody in the area down here, so I was like, you know what, I'm going to look for a paranormal group if that's something that exists. And um great, mind you, this is like over 10 years ago. And um, there was a I was shocked to find that there was actually a huge community, like a subculture, if you will, of people that um investigated the paranormal, and I thought that that was fascinating. So I reached out to this group called Maryland Paranormal Research, and they stuck out to me because they were very tech-driven themselves. And everybody that was part of the team either worked for the government, like me, um, or was contractor to the government in some way, or into science in some way. And I just thought, okay, these are my people. And uh I started investigating with them, um, both residential cases, and then we would do fun, like fun investigations for ourselves at historic locations in the area. And so that's how I was found for Ghosts of Shepherdstown was through my paranormal team.

SPEAKER_02 4:47

Wow, and this your experiences, was it the same entity, or were there different entities? Did an entity follow you to Washington, D.C. Was it ghosts? Was it UFOs? Are you are you comfortable talking about that? Or should we just kind of leave that just in the background?

SPEAKER_01 5:01

Or no, yeah, I can definitely talk about it. It was um so when I was a kid, I had really horrible nightmares. And I guess now they call them night terrors for kids, right? Um, but they would always coincide with, I mean, this is kind of creepy. I felt bad for my mom, feel bad for her now looking back on it. But I they always coincided with sleepwalking for me. And so sometimes I would uh either my mom would find me in random places of the house, or I would I would wake up like sitting at the edge of my bed after a really bad dream, or like staring into the mirror was probably the scariest one I experienced. But there was definitely multiple entities that I experienced growing up that would come, I guess, to visit, or whatever it was. I don't really know if I knew exactly what it was. Um, fast forward to moving into this apartment, uh, it was just myself and I had a small dog at the time, so it was the two of us living in this space, and it started out where I would wake up sometimes in the middle of the night and see a figure standing in the door frame, very similar to things that I would experience as a child. But then it started to progress where I started having dreams about this entity, and um I would have experiences where I would be outside of my body as well, like between that the between that moment where you're awake and asleep, sometimes, and I used to do this a lot as a kid, like sometimes I I I started like leaving my body. And so this thing that was in the space, uh how it pr presented itself was this very disturbed man. He wore boots and a trench coat, but he would pace a lot in my closet. That's like quick question. That's like I would get in dreams.

SPEAKER_02 7:02

It wasn't a shadow figure, you could see kind of the features, you could see the features of this person, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

So when I would so when I'd wake in the middle of the night and see it, it would be more of a shadow figure. But in my dream state, or in my out-of-body, I guess, state, um, I would very much so see him.

SPEAKER_03 7:20

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

And um there were two experiences that made me say to myself, I need to find out what this is or what's going on with me, because I am not willing to accept that I'm just crazy. So there was one time where um I remember I was in my dream state, but I was walking around in my apartment, and uh I remember being at the foot of my bed outside of my body and seeing this man pacing back and forth talking to himself, and he was very angry. And I remember there was a voice inside my head saying, Don't let him see you, don't let you, don't let him notice you. And the funniest thing happened is something that happened that you wouldn't think that would happen in a state like that. But I remember taking a step and my floorboard creaking. And so as soon as my floorboard creaked, he turned his head in the closet. I'll never forget the look on his face over his shoulder. And I'm not even kidding you. I watched myself jump back into my body because I was so scared. And I remember sitting up, gasping, and like could not believe what just happened. It was terrifying.

SPEAKER_02 8:36

Um were you sleepwalking when the floor creaked, or was it in your mind? You know, were you?

SPEAKER_01 8:41

No, it was in my mind. Like, I really think that because I used to do it all the time as a kid, like, and I know it sounds a little weird, but I would I would go outside of my body and like fly around, right? I would I would do these things as a kid. That would scare me, you know.

SPEAKER_02 8:56

That would scare me because I'd lose control, you know. Did you did you yeah, did you have like a silver cord connecting you to your body, or how did you and when you left your body, was there like a vibration type thing going on? What was it like when you leave your body and come back in?

SPEAKER_01 9:09

Oh, this is such a good question. Um, and it's one I've I've actually not really had with people because I think that what's hard for me is in the back of my mind, I'm always going to be skeptical of my own experience, right?

SPEAKER_03 9:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

I try to find a logical explanation because it sounds crazy. It sounds crazy. But no, I think as a kid, I was I was at a stage for uh I would say a long period of time where I wasn't having conversations with people about my experiences. I wasn't being told like, oh no, that's not happening, or no, you didn't experience that. And uh, you know, how we consume media and content is so different today than it was when we were kids. It just didn't exist. So I've I feel like a lot of my childhood, I was in my own little bubble of my experiences. And then as I got older, like sometimes that would change. I've always had really intense dreams for sure. But those things like leaving my body or flying around or moments like that, it was almost natural. It was an instinctive, like I knew that I could do these things. I had no doubt. And I think because I didn't have doubt, I had those experiences.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

Can you still do it? And do you still do it?

SPEAKER_01 10:29

Um, I have as an adult, I have um I used to practice a lot more qi gang and uh kung fu, and um, I was able to do it a lot better when I did those things. Um but I had a couple times that were a little scary, and so I I kind of stopped uh exploring, if you will, certain spaces. That's like it could become a wild conversation here talking about it, but that's the best way to put it. I I think that I find when you whether you're having an out-of-body experience or whether you're astro traveling or um remote viewing or having a really intense dream that you swear is real, I still think that you're crossing into spaces sometimes that we don't fully understand. And there's other things there that, you know, can be a little weird.

SPEAKER_02 11:27

All right, I'm gonna have to see you at a paracon sometime and get a couple drinks from you and get the rest done. Uh yeah. So it's uh, you know, I was gonna go into the the stuff you've done. I'm gonna go back to that because I'm thinking what I'm hearing you talking about, this sounds like it might be stuff that inspired you for your stories with Saint series. So let's jump to that, you know, because I've seen some trailers of you walking in your sleep and seeing people digging in the greenhouse and stuff like that. So uh so yeah, let's just talk about stories with Saint. This is a different type of, you know, the Ghost of Shepherd's Town, or even the the films that you've been in, you know, the uh what was the one I was thinking of? Uh The House in Between Two. Those are investigations. You're in, you bring your your your your equipment, your gadgets. Um this is something very interesting, and and thank you so much. You had me in the first one, the first story that you did called uh not not my not our kind or not my kind. Yeah, not my kind. Yeah. And it's a cool concept. So how did this can you explain to our audience what it is and how you came up with this concept and and and kind of how it's been going? You recently released the first one and you have a second one coming out, and on Friday the 13th, you released uh Not My Kind.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

I did, I did. It was a good date for it. Yeah. So I guess I could back up just a little bit. Um, you know, a couple years ago, I find my I found myself at a place where uh I I felt like honestly, I felt like a bit of a disconnect with the paranormal community. And um I I had opened up a broadcast channel on Instagram, and I just started posting these weekly bits about tech I've created in the past or um experiences that I had, uh location highlights, and I I really started to like that. I I liked the engagement that I had with people. I liked being able to share stuff for with people that like wanted to read it, you know. Um, but I I wanted to do something in the community, but I found myself a bit lost because there's so much content out there. I mean, there's so many people investigating and recording, and there's so many people that everybody has such a cool, unique view on the paranormal, and they're sharing that, and I love that. But I said for myself, like, yes, of course, I could do that stuff too, but what was I really going to be compelled to do for myself as a passion for myself that I got excited about on a day-to-day basis? And um my day job, you know, is I I'm uh I own a video production company. And so you end up making a lot of content for other people, right? Um, and and um I love my clients to death. I love all the work and the projects that we do together, but I was really lacking that creativeness for myself, something that like made me want to turn on a camera for myself and put stuff out there. And um, so about eight months ago, I had this idea of starting a choose your own adventure story. Um, and I thought, like, oh, it would be cool if I just did these little story bits and I put them out and people could vote on the next part and we could see where the story goes from that. So uh I remember I did the first one, going back to your question, um, based on an experience that I personally had with what I would say would be alien phenomenon. And all of my stories have an Easter egg in them somewhere about an experience I personally had, um, including yours, is a that was a real experience up until a point it gets fiction, right? But a good part of that was an experience I had with somebody in the paranormal community when I went to a convention.

SPEAKER_03 15:21

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

And so all the stories do ping back to an experience I've personally had. And uh so yeah, eight months ago I started the stories. They're broken up into five parts. People vote not only on the part direction, but then what genre I guess we go and do next for the next story. And now we've we're working on our 12th story now.

SPEAKER_02 15:45

So and do they ever vote and you're like, I don't really like the way they voted, but I gotta do it anyways. Does that happen often?

SPEAKER_01 15:51

It's happened a few times. It's happened a few times where I'm like, oh man, I really wanted to take the story this way. Um, so it yeah, it does happen, but it keeps things interesting for me. And I I I enjoy the challenge because it is quite a challenge to to have a like to write a story, um, a part to a story every week, but I have found it to be such a beautiful creative outlet for me. And I I love that like um I see the votes grow every week and people engaging and being involved. It's just a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

So can you um promote your channel? You have like a channel where there's like 600 plus members right now where they can go in and vote and and how they do that. And another question I have is some are audio and some are video, correct? Is that true? Like some stories are audio and some are video. And um I'm sorry, I'm gonna throw a third question in this. Like, not my kind. Does that story end there or does that continue, or did it end kind of in that first one?

SPEAKER_01 16:51

Yeah, so great questions. Um my broadcast channels are on my instagram and Facebook. I just opened up Facebook about a month or so ago. But it's called Saint Shadow Society. That's the broadcast channel. And um I do in my bio have uh links that go to all of these things as well, that's helpful. But you can also just read the stories at storieswithsaint.com and you can vote there as well, and you can catch up on all my past stories that we've written, which is pretty cool. Yeah. And then each story, um, some stories I offer a vote to extend to uh to make the story last longer. So there was one story called Um The Cleansing, and that went on for three stories. And and that was actually based off of a real case me and my team had in Vermont. Um, and we were sent at the time by the paranormal clergy to go cleanse that home.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

Wow. And um you know, how many more stories do you have? It's kind of a Twilight Zone feel, quite frankly, to be honest with you, when I listened when I listened to the first one. Uh very cool.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

Um how many Oh yeah. Wait, going back to your other question that helps with your next question here. Um, so we convert, so I decided I at the end of last year I said, at the end of last year, I said, I'm going to convert these into an a narrative audio podcast where people can actually listen to the stories in full. Because I was a little bummed that once a story ended that it wasn't actually living somewhere.

SPEAKER_03 18:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

And so I I started in January of this year, and I was like, you know what? If I'm not going to do anything else, I'm absolutely going to do this. And I'm so happy I did. I kind of like held myself accountable. I guess in New Year's resolution, I'm I guess we could view it that way. But so yeah, so now it's a narrative podcast. Every story that we've completed is currently going into production to um showcase a narrative form of the completed story of the five parts everybody voted on. And what's really neat and unique is I do have a sign-up form. Anybody can be a voice actor. So I have a list of people I've been working through to bring on board and be a character on one of the episodes. And and like for you, like you did an amazing job on that episode of Not My Kind. Like, oh, it was so good. If nobody's listened to him on this episode, you need to. He plays the entity, and it really brought it to life.

SPEAKER_02 19:36

I'll tell you, if there's any role I can play, it's a creepy guy that makes you uncomfortable. So that's probably the perfect casting for me. So uh, and you've got a great voice for a narrator. That's really cool. Um, yeah, they have to check it out. So uh see again the two places where they could go. I mean, I'm gonna put it in the notes and stuff, but because this will go out as a video and as an audio version of this podcast. But one more time because there are a lot of people that are closet actors and want to do it, and you this is a great format. I mean, I I I I wanted to do it. I always hope with um doing podcasts, someone would discover my voice and I'd be in some series or something. And you were the first one, so thank you.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

It happens, yeah. You can go. So anybody can go to storieswithsaint.com. Uh currently, you can listen to the podcasts on Spotify, Amazon Music, Apple Podcasts, and you can also just go to storieswithsaint.com and listen to it on the website as well. And that's also where you can submit a form in the navigation bar. There's a little link where you can go and um submit to the form, fill out the form to be a character actor, voice actor for the series.

SPEAKER_02 20:44

And what are the main platforms? It's on Spotify, Amazon, what's the third one missing? Is it Apple? Apple. Okay, cool. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Excellent. And uh, do you put out those like once every week, once every two weeks, the audio versions? What's your goal on that?

SPEAKER_01 20:59

Yeah, so it's once every three weeks. The next episode comes out March 31st, and I and it'll be split into seasons. So we'll we'll have five episodes a season, and that just helps me so our so our podcast, our narrative podcast never catches up to the stories because we have 12 stories kind of in the can, but uh every story takes five weeks to unfold. And what's your team?

SPEAKER_02 21:26

Let's go and throw a couple bouquets to them. Who's your team that you work with, and and how big is the team that you work with to get this great work done?

SPEAKER_01 21:33

Yeah, so Freddie Bernstein is our amazing voice director. You worked with her to do our recording. She really brings um some amazing talent out of people. Even if you've never done it before, she's great to work with.

SPEAKER_02 21:47

She she has you do some exercises which makes you look really silly. So you've got some nice video for blackmailing us if you need to, like downstream. So it's really good. Yeah, she was great. And she was really, you know, and it's both of you are when when you I just get the experience is it takes like a half an hour for a roll. You log into like Riverside, similar to the platform I use for this, and you have your coach, which is Freddie, and you, and that you kind of go through the lines and you do a couple rounds of it, you get constructive criticism, and then you're you're rock, it's locked and loaded, and then a couple weeks later it's live. So it's a very fun experience. And it wasn't intimidating. It was it was fun, it was good. You found very easy to work with you and Freddie both on on the uh on the recording.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

Yeah, yeah. She she's she does like an amazing job. And then I I also brought on to the team um we have Jordan Suckley who does the sound design. Um then we also have Stuart Barefoot that does the folly and all the sound effects, and uh that he does that, and um Al Creedon, who's been who's at this point a childhood friend, he did all the original music for the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

So yeah, it's very well produced. Very well produced. Um so where do you see it going? I mean, you're gonna let the podcast run for a year, or do you see it going into another format, a graphic novel, a uh a shorts on YouTube? Where do you see it evolving?

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Yeah, so I do every every part I do put out um because they're fun for me, but I do put out uh a small like AI generated video that goes along with the storyline.

SPEAKER_03 24:17

Cool. All right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

Yeah, yeah. So those are those are fun to do and put out. And um I I post those on on my social media every week as like a teaser to the next part that's about to drop. But uh I I haven't told anybody this yet, but except for the the team that I'm working with, but I am starting to do um uh uh like a choose your own adventure book series based on the stories that we've kind of done and make them going back to the question you had before is like, does not my kind end there? I would love to really elaborate some of these stories, not just write them in a week. And so um, that's the forum I'm gonna do for those. And then I would like to take a couple of these select stories and at the very least create short films from them. Um, but we'll see how it goes. I I've always I've always said that I would love to get more into film. Uh, and I think it would be a great avenue to do that and to make one of these stories really come to life to be able to do something like that.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

You know what you should do? You should get some uh college film students or organic film students and have them pick stories and create it, and then you put it into like an anthology or something, you know, with all different voices. That would be kind of cool, you know.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

Um that's just I would love that. No, it's a great idea. Producer credit to you.

SPEAKER_03 25:40

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

If I do that, you're getting one.

SPEAKER_03 25:44

Perfect.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

That's a great idea, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:46

No, as you because it's just look, I did like an I did um a graphic novel, and then I did like a graphic novel anthology of shorts. I I had a kind of a before I did this, I had something called Hesky Horror, and it I only did like three.

SPEAKER_03 25:57

Oh my gosh, I did not know that.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

No, but it's a very small thing, indie published, and then I did like a complete amalgam of everything and and had that out as a book for a while. You know, not not nothing like what you've done, but I mean I I had the reason I did that was because I wrote a bunch of films. They some of them got optioned, but they didn't get made. So then I made a bunch of shorts because it's like it's easier to write a shorts. And then I took some of those shorts that did pretty well in contests and I put them into a graphic novel. I turned them into like graphic novel, and that's what I did, you know. And it was uh it's funny.

SPEAKER_01 26:30

That's so cool.

SPEAKER_02 26:31

Yeah, this is over like 12 years ago, 12, 15 years ago, but I did win like uh an Ippie Award. It's an independent, it's a very prestigious kind of New York. It was a bronze medal. They didn't have a class for like you know, graphic novels, but it was under horror, and I came in third place in that. But uh yeah, and I I I look at your stories and I see the same type of thing. Often you have to give me your address. I'll send you a copy of the actual the uh graphic novel anthology.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

Please do. I would love that. Yeah, I mean, if if anyone wants to collab on graphic novel, I would I would love that. I think that that's the whole point of all this, is I really love the community vibe it's given everything. I like having all these different people involved and uh yeah, I I it it's just really cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:18

Yeah, I think there's some, I mean you look podcasts, sometimes podcasts are made in the movies and stuff. So there's so many places this could go. And I'll, you know, I I I really love what you're doing with it. Um before we go on to other things that you've worked on or things you have coming out, is there anything else you want to talk about regarding uh stories with Saint? Is there anything, you know, any announcements or anything, or uh just inviting people to check it out and to uh maybe audition as a uh as a voice?

SPEAKER_01 27:45

Yeah, I would just say go to storieswithsaint.com. Everything you need is there. Um, like the links to the broadcast channel. If you want to join the little community that we have, if you want to catch up on the stories, um if you need to reach out to me, you can do that as well. I mean, I'm I'm pretty open and um I'm just excited for where where everything goes. I mean, every week we're gonna be having a story that we're working on. So I just welcome people to to come and check it out. I mean, it's it's just a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_02 28:15

Cool. Now let's talk about you as the paranormal celebrity, the paraselect. Um how does your background as an electrical engineer, how does it change the way you I mean, it look, it's you're you're both sides of the coin, right? You've had these paranormal experiences as a kid, you've done out-of-body traveling, but then you're a very logical electrical engineer working within the science realm. How does that, how did that affect you as a paranormal investigator and how you approached uh um certain investigations? And maybe one you could talk about would be the um, what was it called? The house on the uh hold on one second, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

Oh, the house in between two.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

House in between two, yeah. That was a fun that was a fun one, I thought.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

I've had the opportunity to experiment in this field, I think, in a lot of ways that other people haven't had the opportunity to, um, particularly at uh going to some of the locations and building gear in real time that is built for that location. Like that that was uh that was something that I've I've really loved being able to do is just experiment and then like given the opportunity to just, hey, make what you want, whatever you feel for this particular location. This is what happens here. And like it's it's been really cool and had some interesting results. And I think that in this field we have to do a lot of experimentation. I think it's extremely important. And then, but then on the other side, um, you know, I would say that I I've definitely experienced things in my life that would probably make a lot of people a believer in something else. But there's always this voice in the back of my head. It's definitely the engineer, Elizabeth, that says, Well, no, no, no, you could just not even be here really at all. This could be one long dream, and none of nothing that you experience really matters here. So the fact that you had this going on, I'm sorry, but there's probably an explanation for that. So I kind of, you know, I I've had some really beautiful experiences in my life when it comes to spirituality and the paranormal. And um, sometimes I feel a bit robbed of that because I I have the other side to me.

SPEAKER_02 30:24

Yeah, you have the the devil and the angel on your shoulder, right? Which bring different things into your into your head, which is interesting. Um, yeah, I don't know if I ever told you this. So uh the Afraid of nothing documentary. I never have seen a full body apparition or anything, but I did have it was my kind of a paranormal experience I had. I'll I'll I'll tell you very quickly because I don't know if I ever told you in the background was so part of that um documentary was I went to a place called the uh I think it's called uh the Magic Parlor in Salem, and I knew the guy because he had actually been a director and produced a drama we made together a couple years before that called Bless It. And he would get Ouija boards from the Talking Board Historical Society that were allegedly cursed, and they would bring them to his shop and he would like sell them. And he he called me and he said, Hey, I got this Ouija board, and and I had a person come in and he said, It's sell them. You know, they're weird, but someone came in, looked at the board and the display case, and said, There's seven demons in that Ouija board. And so naturally he sold it to me. And so uh I was married at the time, and my ex-wife wouldn't let me bring in the house, so I had it in my trunk, in my car, right? And as I would drive to work, um, I would try to cheat at work because there's a parking lot, you had to walk a million miles or the garage. I would cheat and go to the top. And usually I had FM on, but I one one day I had AM radio on, listening to Sport Talk Radio, and as you go around the garage, I would hear this weird kind of voices coming through. It was, and it was, and it happened like three, four days in a row. So finally I I recorded it, and one of the guys in the film did EVPs, and then he cleansed it, and it was all this stuff that came out from the EVPs, which was like uh when I look back, it was like we're hiding me. And I thought, oh, they're in the trunk, but you know, and then it was like they said something negative about God, and I would always start every day with an affirmation about God, right? And so those EVPs are actually in the documentary. But what's even weirder was I did finally get rid of the board. Um, one night I'm in bed. I hope my ex-wife hasn't listened to this, and I literally I'm laying in bed, and I felt like someone punched me, not like in the gut, but the opposite, my rib cage open, and like something almost leapt out of me, right? And I'm in bed facing my ex-wife, and I can see her eyes flutter really quickly like that. Um we're toward the end of our marriage. I didn't tell her about it at the time. And so uh, yeah. And so I always wondered, and it, but it it was real. I mean, I was awake, I could feel, I could feel something come out of me. I could feel almost like my chest open and something come out of me, and it almost like it left me because I was I was almost being I was doing daily affirmations and things like that. It was almost like I wasn't a good host, I almost felt, you know. And for a while I was freaked out that my soul left me, you know. You have all these thoughts you think about, and um, I don't have anything beyond that story, nothing has happened to me in the 10 years or so since that. But and my wife wasn't possessed by the devil or anything, you know, but but but she is kind of psychic. But uh that was the closest thing I had to an experience where I had really good EVPs in my car off my car radio on the AM radio. Um, and then I felt after the um I was done filming, something came out of my body and left, you know. And uh so that was my weird experience on that on that film. So I don't know. If you're gonna put me on a couch and psychoanalyze me, what would you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 33:39

I have so many questions. Like I say, so you say that you felt like your soul left your body, right?

SPEAKER_02 33:48

I was afraid. I know something I felt something. Yeah, I felt something, I felt some energy leave my body. Like it was like someone a reverse punch out of your stomach instead of into it, like it opened and something left.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

Well, uh yeah. I mean, yes, we could say, like, oh, it was a negative entity that was there with you, which I I think happens when people are in a really dark place. It's not uncommon, I think, for certain things to attach to you, latch onto you.

SPEAKER_03 34:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

Um, so I I do think that there's that part. But the way you were describing it also made me feel like I shouldn't laugh. It's not funny. Um, but that potentially like, well, maybe maybe you're like soul sharing your body a bit. Maybe the first portion of your life that was something else, and now now now it's you.

SPEAKER_03 34:39

Yeah, that's I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

Because and and then there a lot of came a change came with that or something. And um, and because I I say that only because there are people that have distinct memories of something similar um from things that I've read, and and they're very aware of the transition period where um they left and something else came, or vice versa, and it was like a transition period in their life because at the end of the day, we're we're just vessels for whatever this is.

SPEAKER_02 35:13

And I don't know. I tell you, my fear is I'll go to heaven, I'll be in line, you know, with my ticket, you know, and so it's like going to TSA, and they're like, okay, show us your license. I'm like, uh show us your soul. You don't have your soul. I'm looking for it and I don't have it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 35:27

So I I definitely think you got your soul. I definitely think you have your soul. Yeah, I I I think about these moments all the time too. I'm like, you know, it'll be it'll be a really funny joke if like I die and then I just wake up on a table and there's the bright light above me, and they're like, oh, welcome back. You you had a good trip, uh, you know.

SPEAKER_02 35:50

Alice. It's like they end up in Alice, that series. Yeah, it's all a dream. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

Yeah, it's all a dream, or like like I I was just in a very long VR simulation.

SPEAKER_02 36:01

Yeah. All right. Well, let me know if if you whatever you think. I I feel like I'm fine since then. I feel like I'm doing good stuff, but I was going through a uh that was a weird time with making that. As you know, sometimes you make documents. I was finding in the paranormal, it was too easy for me to get EVPs after a while, and I stopped doing it. I could like almost do it easily anywhere. I could, you know, pull out a recording or whatever and get answers and stuff. So I stopped doing that, and then I just became, you know, the play-by-play commentator on the uh podcast the past seven or eight years.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

So uh I you know what I will say this because you're bringing it up, and uh I think that you know uh I heard someone say this recently, and I and I completely agree and I totally resonate with it, is the fact that you know, we we get told all the time, like, don't investigate in your home, don't do this, don't do that. There's all these rules, even when it comes down to the spirit board, which are most of the time were created by films, not not actually like like there's these rules to everything, right? Yeah, I think the moment you say to your, you give yourself rules, the moment you say to yourself, oh, I'm not supposed to do that, you're already letting things in. You're already lowering your vibration. Yeah, if you're going into it thinking that you're going to be scolded somehow for doing it a certain way, like you're already bringing yourself there. And so I I I wouldn't take it necessarily as a negative thing unless you felt that there was something. If you started to feel that something negative was coming through your recorder when you were communicating, like then I have no doubt because in your mind you're already thinking that it's happening, you know?

SPEAKER_03 37:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:44

And I I think that there's something to be said about that. I have people, like when I do sessions and stuff, you'll always get the comments like, are you in your house? You're not supposed to investigate in your house. And it's just like, where did you get this from exactly? Um, does any are or are we just all echoing each other by saying, you're not supposed to do this, you're not supposed to do that. But you know what? Like my home is so peaceful because that's what I project out into the space. And I think that, you know, I I I don't believe that the evil is going to get me. I think that, you know, within all of us, there is a darkness and a light. And I think so many people sometimes are trying to fight the darkness. And I think that it's important to remember that, but we need both sides of us to exist. It's like the side that you want to bring forward that matters oftentimes. And um, I think if we stopped fighting these ideas so much and start to think, like remember that you are everything that you're supposed to be, and um you know what's right, you know what's wrong. Like you don't need to be told, yeah. I think I think that you know, if we start from a place not feeling like we're gonna get scolded by everyone around us for doing certain things, like because that that's when it becomes dangerous. That you know, uh when we would have like residential cases and and and they'd be like, Well, the team la last team that was here told me I had like seven demons in my basement. And you're like, Well, you probably at this point you probably do because you believe it. You believe it. So, you know, I'm not saying don't believe it, but what I am saying is don't forget who you are and what you're capable of as a spiritual entity here, you know.

SPEAKER_02 39:30

Yeah, I've had a conversation with my co-host Kyle several times about, you know, because the more I'm alive, everything's a myth. You know, it's like you you don't think you're gonna die when you're young, then you realize it's gonna happen. You you don't you you think Santa Claus is real, you think the Easter bunny is real, you think all this stuff is real and it becomes a myth, right? And so I've always thought like the big thing, the the purpose of death is to finally find the truth, you know, is because there's all this stuff around you that you have to filter. And I've always felt like the big journey in life is to ultimately find the truth. Have your journey, but find the ultimate truth. And so I don't know. What are your thoughts on that in terms of our journey here and why we're here and and kind of what we're seeking?

SPEAKER_01 40:08

Yeah, I just give you a very deep question. I'm sorry. I don't know. No, it's um it's it's an important one. I I think that I I think there's a couple different ways I think about it. Um do I think that this could potentially just be one large school for our soul? Maybe. Yeah, maybe. Maybe we we come into this life with um like a skeletal outline of things that we're gonna hit and do, and people that we're gonna meet, and connection we already have. That's why sometimes we're really connected to some people and we're like, ah, I remember you, old friend, but we just met. Um, you know, like I think that, yes, I think that there is a path and lane where that does exist and that does happen. Um there's the like the Buddhist side of me that will say, you know, all of it is to, you know, better cultivate our our soul.

SPEAKER_03 41:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:03

Um I I think that I I think that it's not so easily defined though. I don't think anybody has it quite right. And I think that we can't, you know. What what would be the point of being here if we had the answers in the first place?

SPEAKER_02 41:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

Um What drives your curiosity?

SPEAKER_02 41:18

You're you've been on a pretty fantastic trip, you know, in terms of the paranormal and the the things that you do. Would you know, and you have both sides of your brain working. You've got the the experiencer and you've got the kind of scientific side. What drives your curiosity as you go from project to project and do things? What kind of or do you even know, or you just kind of go on autopilot on the trip?

SPEAKER_01 41:38

Is there yeah, uh that no, that's a great question. I think that no, I've always been a very curious person ever since I was a child, absolutely. I think that that's carried into my adult life. Uh that person has never left, and um and I I bring that into everything that I do. Right. I do, as I've gotten older though, I've I've started to see a shift a bit in that. I think after being a part of the community for so long, having all the experiences that I've had, the only solid takeaway that I have at this point, the only thing I know for certain is that there is something else. Whatever that else is, um, I don't think I can define. I I we have these terms like, oh, it's a ghost and it's a negative entity, and it's a like, but I I just don't think that that's accurate. And I think that what makes me curious is to um just see where all the doors lead and be open and receptive to the ideas, even if it's not something that I'm comfortable with because I don't feel like I I have any answers. I just get more questions. And I find that what I love about this community is hearing, like yourself, everybody else's stories and perspectives, because it just lets me know, like, even when I go on can to conventions and people tell you their experiences and stories, I just think to myself, like, wow, this is an amazing catalog in my mind about all these people that have had very similar experiences sometimes. They don't even know each other. Like, there's something to that. There's something to all of this, and I find a lot of beauty in that and getting to know people in the community, hearing about others' experiences. And um I think that yeah, I that that's what gets me excited about this space, is we might not ever know, but I think that that's the point.

SPEAKER_02 43:46

Yeah, you you you come across to me as very calm, you know, and like you kind of accept the journey and let your story unfold. Other people are a little more kind of maybe nervousness or anxiety drives them, but you come across as a very um calm and focused and centered person who is able to process what comes and what doors you open and that you walk through. That's just my my interpretation, Elizabeth. But you you seem very controlled and very um thoughtful in in how you take your journey in life. And I think it's a it's a great one that you've done. I know we're getting to the end of this. I just want to do a quick riff on some of the um series that you've been in. Um Weird World Adventures. Can you talk about that?

SPEAKER_01 44:27

Yeah, yeah, my good friend Mallory Mackey. She um she's done two seasons now. Season two was just released on Amazon, and season one, um, she had come out a couple years ago. But uh she brought me on as a guest in season one. I was um in two episodes then, and then she brought me back when she came to visit, pass through DC on one of her episodes. I was able to go out and film with her for a decade. Which was which was great. We went to like the she had never been to the Exorcist steps, so I took her. Yeah. And so that was so and then she took me to this weird Barbie pond that I didn't know existed. Essentially, it's a person that like has this pond in front of her house. And it and it's just like a regular home, like in DC. And she just changes the the Barbie figurines around this pine. It's very weird. Hence, hence the title Weird World Adventures. You never know where you're gonna go with Mallory, but it's the places she finds are pretty interesting. So people should check it out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

Wow. Now we've talked about stories with Saint. Let's talk about something that's upcoming. A haunting on the Saginaw uh River, the Great Ghost. Can you talk about that? It's coming out later this year, correct?

SPEAKER_01 45:38

Yeah, yeah. Steve should be um probably one of my best friends, hands down. Uh he brings me on, he's brought me on a few of his projects actually. I filled with I filmed with him a few times for his Patreon, but he brought me out um for this documentary film a few years ago, and I'm so happy that he's finally doing it. I think that um if anybody knows Steve Shippy or follows him, he's going through a really tough time right now. Um but what keeps him going through the dark times right now, I think, of fighting cancer, unfortunately, is are his projects that he just never stops working on. So I he's like editing like crazy.

SPEAKER_02 46:19

Yeah, I just throw one of the out. He did a GoFundMe, which I'll try to put a link in it, but he's got a lot of support, which is great. When you know that you're not on the battle alone, that's important. He's I don't know him. I was he with you on the House in Between Two, or what what what what past project that did you work with him on? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:36

No, we we had uh so back when we had Vidispace, um, the streaming platform, we had gotten connected then. And he was putting out a lot of different documentaries at that time. And over the years, we've just kept in touch and became closer. Um, I've worked with him, like I said, for his Patreon content, for his documentaries. He had uh a fragrant fragrance line that I I shot like a small commercial with him on, which was really cool. So we've just become really good friends over the years.

SPEAKER_02 47:09

Oh wow, okay. Um so that is coming out, the haunting of the on the Saginaw River. Is there a a launch date or is that still to be determined?

SPEAKER_01 47:17

Not yet, but in the fall, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:19

And is there anything, if you're gonna give like a quick sentence or two riff on it, what would people expect when they see when they watch this documentary?

SPEAKER_01 47:26

Uh, I think they're gonna love like Steve's cinematography on the project. He showed me like this small clip the other day. It just looks really beautiful. Uh, I had a blast filming with him on the ship, in the bows of the ship, and um I got to create some gear for that documentary as well, which was a lot of fun to experiment with. I did like a dig I created like a digital Morse code for spirits to communicate with using different sensors on the device because I thought that would resonate. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that that'll be a lot of fun for people to see.

SPEAKER_02 48:02

Now, Ghostly Gadgets, is that like a is that just another business you have? Is that a store where people can buy equipment or is that something you just have and that you create for certain shows that you're on?

SPEAKER_01 48:12

Yeah. So when I when I did season two, Ghost of Shepherd's Town, and um season three and four of Paranormal Lockdown, uh, I built a lot of gear behind the scenes for the shows, and particularly in Paranormal Lockdown, and and out of those years where I was building a lot of gear, I started, I started calling them ghostly gadgets. And um I would have them refer to the devices as ghostly gadgets. And that was kind of my thing. I I don't sell anything. I would love to eventually put a piece or put a device out there, but I really want to invest the time into making it be a device that is usable in the field, but also a bit customizable, fully transparent down to like the sensors that are used in the device, because I think a lot of people don't understand what's going into their devices. And at the end of the day, they could just be really cheap parts, you know, like and they're not they're not capturing the full spectrum of what I think sometimes they could be. So anytime I've created a device, I make sure that I'm using really high quality components. Um, even if it costs me like$60 to$100 just for a single component, I will, I will do it just so I guess, just so I know what I'm measuring accurately, and just so I know that I'm I'm pushing the device to the best place it could be to make sense for the community. Because what like what's the point? Am I gonna throw something together that blinks because it detected something in a dark space? Like, sure, I could do that and put a lot of uh little devices out there, and people would love it because they'd go off and be like, oh, that's exciting. But I don't want that. I want I want it to matter and have some integrity. And no, I'm not saying that there's not people that don't do that. There are a lot of people in the field that do that and have integrity with the devices that they build. Um but there's also I think a side where that's not happening.

SPEAKER_02 50:07

Is there is there one device you made for a show that blew your mind with the results that you got?

SPEAKER_01 50:16

Yeah, I think that there's uh there's definitely been um a few of them, I think for sure. Oh it's hard to it's hard to pick just one. I think that for me, what I learned with my paranormal team was uh we would run a lot of sensor data, right? And I think that whenever I build devices, I like to remember the the fact that whenever we would see a change in the environment, right, or a shift in some of our sensors, it would always correlate sometimes with our best like class A EVP responses. And I love the correlation between those two things. So whenever I build a device, I find them all fascinating because I make them intelligent enough to always be actively baselining the space, which I think is huge. I think that they it needs to be doing that. And then, you know, if if it goes off, it's because multiple things have happened, not just because one thing has happened. And there have been some situations where I really like to experience experiment with the sensors, but I also like to experiment with light because I've had a lot of um like lasers and converting those into audio waves because I I've had EVPs uh over the years that where things will describe themselves as light or they'll say that they're a light phenomenon. And I always thought that that was interesting to me. So for instance, when I was filming The House in Between Two, I did I did create like a light sensitive box, but also a box that would tell you um what wavelength um what wave of light was was being received from the box itself. So if it saw some blue light in in a dark room, it would it would glow blue and then you would know. If it saw some red light in the room, it would glow red and you would know. And I thought that that was really cool and interesting because, well, first of all, if it didn't see it, it wouldn't light up, right? And they they at that location they have a lot of strange light phenomenon, particularly with uh in the kitchen, their their light goes on and off, and they've had that thing looked at by an electrician and tested, and they still have these these weird things going on. So long answer, but good answer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:44

I have three short questions before we wrap up, if you're really quick. So one is speaking of gadgets, are there any apps, ghost apps, or do you think they're all garbage, or are there any ghost apps that you could download on your phone that you think are worth using?

SPEAKER_01 52:59

You know, that's the that's a really good question. I uh here here's the thing is I would say I used to say like, oh, they're all garbage. And I would say that because I'm a coder myself and I know how easy it is to code things into a program to mimic human intelligence, right? Yeah, and so I was always concerned about that. Well, if I can't see your code, then you it you're probably making stuff up um or making it seem like that's what's happening. But I I went through a period of time like last year, was I was experimenting with all kinds of apps and um Paranor Paranologies had this like um mobile device, Poltercom, that came loaded with uh all different kinds of apps on it. Jeremy Jones, who owns Paranologies, he gave us this device to use on Paranormal Lockdown. And there are some apps on there that really had me thinking. I think that there was one that was like the executioner's box. And um what's interesting about some of these devices uh and some of these apps is you can't explain to me exactly. Like I will ask a very specific question and I will get like sometimes a sentence or two sentence long response with a very intelligent answer. And I've posted videos on that, and you know, of course, a lot of people will deny it and think that it's BS, but I think that you know, I think that like anything, if you view it as this thing is BSing me 99% of the time, that's fine. Maybe it is, maybe maybe it's really good at doing that, but you you can't explain to me the one percent of the time where you get something that just defies all logic, you know? And I can I can say I think that that whatever the tool is that you're using, I still think that it could potentially be a medium to communicate with something beyond ourselves, even if it is ourselves.

SPEAKER_02 55:01

No, that's great. And um, so I another question is I talk to people, and half the people, you know, not half, but rough, let's just say don't think that evil is a man-made convention. There are no such things as demons. What's your thought on evil? Is it is it is it inside man and and it comes from us, or are there demons? Are there external entities that are actually evil? In all your research and what you've come across, what is your thought of of good versus evil? And is it man-made or is there an external thing kind of messing with us?

SPEAKER_01 55:38

Yeah, I think I think it's both. I also uh this is a fantastic question. We could probably talk about this for an hour. Uh but I I look, I'll say, I'll say this. I think that there are, like I mentioned before, there are a lot of places that I think exist um within our existence here and that we maybe not necessarily experience on a day-to-day basis, but I do think that they're there. And I think that there's lots of layers that we don't understand to those spaces. And maybe in some spaces there are demons, and maybe in some spaces there are just really negative energies. Um I would absolutely say absolutely I've been to places that you could say housed something like how we would describe things like that. But at the same time, I've also found that there are a lot of misunderstood things out there as well, like that are sometimes labeled as, oh, that's demonic or that's a demon or that's a negative entity when in fact that's not the case. And I I think it goes back to what I was saying before. Like, yes, we need the good and evil, duality exists, um, it's important, but I think too oftentimes we are so quick to make something that is more dark be negative when it doesn't really have to be considered that way, if that makes any sense at all. No, it does.

SPEAKER_02 57:13

It does.

SPEAKER_01 57:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:14

All right. And uh last question is a real easy one. I think it's an easy one. What's your favorite horror movie that you've seen or that you're looking forward to seeing?

SPEAKER_01 57:23

Oh gosh. Oh man, I don't even know. I don't know if I'm a good person to answer this question. I I saw I saw that there's a lot of remakes happening that were kind of confusing to me. I'm not really sure why that's the case. I can't even think about it right now which ones, but it does seem like like franchises can't end.

SPEAKER_02 57:44

That's fine, they don't have to, but yes, Scream 7, Saw 10.

SPEAKER_01 57:48

Yeah, yeah, exactly. What is happening there? I don't know. But uh no, I I will be honest, I I would love recommendations because I feel like I haven't seen a really good horror film in a long time.

SPEAKER_02 57:59

There is a new one out. I don't know if it's called Intune. It's about a podcaster and it's very much an audio experience, so you definitely want to go to the theater to see it. Yeah, it's really yeah, and I don't know if I have the right name for it, but you know, and I'm sorry, I'll I'll I'll send it to you afterwards, I'll email it to you. But yeah, I was almost tempted to go today to watch it, you know. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:17

It seems ironic.

SPEAKER_02 58:18

Yeah, it's very much kind of an audio focused versus visual type of horror movie, which is kind of interesting. But uh yeah, I mean that's one that I'm looking forward to.

SPEAKER_01 58:27

Yeah, uh I'll check that out. Yeah, there we go.

SPEAKER_02 58:30

Cool. Hey, so um thank you so much, uh Elizabeth, for your time. I know we're going up to an hour, and I I lied to you and told you be like 30 to 45 minutes or whatever, but uh never trust me again. Um, but anyways, I've I've enjoyed the conversation. Is there any last you know tidbit of where people can follow you and and you know, rather on YouTube or anywhere that people can follow you in your goings on that you'd like to leave them with?

SPEAKER_01 58:53

Yeah, absolutely. Um just go to stories of saint.com. You can also go to elisabethsaint.com, although it's not really updated that much. You can follow me on Instagram at Elizabeth Saint underscore, on Facebook at official elizabeth saint. And um yeah, I'll I'll be around.

SPEAKER_02 59:13

Excellent. Yeah, cool. We look forward to seeing you again. So Elizabeth, thank you so much for your time today, and thank you for having me and your inaugural episode, not my kind. I really appreciate it. I had a lot of fun doing it.

SPEAKER_01 59:25

Yeah, perfect. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_02 59:28

Okay.